Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is on Capitol Hill this week, making an attempt to persuade senators that they need to greenlight him to steer the Division of Well being and Human Companies, forward of anticipated affirmation hearings.

Kennedy — who initially ran for president as a Democrat within the main and an Unbiased within the normal election earlier than dropping out and endorsing Trump — is probably finest recognized for his vaccine skepticism and for spreading misinformation in regards to the security of vaccines. He is additionally a fierce critic of the pharmaceutical business, processed meals and water fluoridation.

Kennedy has by no means labored in well being care or the federal authorities, however he is turn into outspoken on a variety of well being care points which have now coalesced beneath the banner of the “Make America Wholesome Once more” motion. He has stated he desires to hearth lots of of profession staffers on the Meals and Drug Administration and on the Nationwide Institutes of Well being, and shift federal analysis funding from infectious illness to power illness and weight problems.

If confirmed, Kennedy can be in control of a $1.7 trillion company with energy over regulating meals and medicines, funding groundbreaking analysis and setting vaccine suggestions. He would additionally oversee Medicare, Medicaid and the Inexpensive Care Act, which account for almost 90% of the division’s finances and supply medical insurance to almost 170 million Individuals.

Kennedy’s views have led to a blended response throughout the political spectrum. Colorado’s Democratic Gov. Jared Polis praised the choose, and New Jersey’s Democratic Sen. Cory Booker acknowledged his widespread floor with Kennedy on the unhealthy U.S. meals system. In distinction, Oregon Sen. Ron Wyden stated Kennedy’s “outlandish views … ought to fear all dad and mom,” and former New York Metropolis mayor Michael R. Bloomberg says Kennedy can be “past harmful” as well being secretary.

On the opposite aspect of the aisle, Wisconsin Republican Sen. Ron Johnson known as Kennedy a “sensible, brave truth-teller,” whereas former Republican Vice President Mike Pence urged senators to reject Kennedy’s nomination over his help for abortion rights.

Kathleen Sebelius, who led HHS beneath President Barack Obama from 2009 to 2014 talked with the well being coverage podcast Tradeoffs in regards to the energy of the place, and the checks and balances Kennedy could face in enacting a few of his priorities.

“The [HHS] secretary is able to do lots of good, but in addition doubtlessly do lots of hurt,” she stated.

Kathleen Sebelius on Could 6, 2014 in Nationwide Harbor, Md.

Patrick Smith/Getty Photographs/Getty Photographs North America

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Patrick Smith/Getty Photographs/Getty Photographs North America

Listed here are highlights from that dialog, edited for size and readability:

On the function of the HHS secretary

[The secretary] is the [federal government’s] public spokesperson for well being and wellness, not solely in America however around the globe, as a result of America has an enormous function in world well being and in partnering with different international locations.

Numerous the function of secretary is profitable hearts and minds, as a result of I can assure you nothing will get completed in a federal company except lots of the employees in that company consider that they are a part of the mission. I spent a great deal of time in the beginning of my tenure actually bodily visiting every company … having lunch with individuals on the bottom.

I might by no means have completed the job with any measure of success with out studying one thing from actually proficient individuals. Having individuals come ahead and say, you already know, it’s possible you’ll not have thought of this, however how about this? That form of administration, I feel, in any large group works nicely. Not that you just arrive with the solutions, however that you just truly study one thing in regards to the group that you just’re requested to steer.

On how a lot energy the HHS secretary wields

[The job] might be wildly highly effective and unpowerful on the identical time. A lot of the energy within the company, a lot of the administrative authority comes from legal guidelines that Congress has handed, and the company is then requested to put in writing guidelines and [regulations] and implement these legal guidelines. What I came upon is that there have been lots of areas the place the company had administrative energy that they’d by no means used.

One of many areas that [we] recognized inside HHS was lots of alternative to make a distinction with LGBTQ residents in the USA. I imply, throughout the board, there have been guidelines and regs in place that have been very limiting. So we started to redefine what a member of the family was. This was nicely earlier than the wedding determination and Supreme Courtroom and others. We had companions who had been long-time dwelling collectively and weren’t allowed to go to one another in a crucial care unit in a hospital as a result of they weren’t a member of a household. You might truly transfer long-standing coverage. You might rescind what a earlier administration had completed. You might redefine phrases that had a big impact on individuals. And that might be completed all administratively, not by going again to Congress.

On the boundaries of the HHS secretary’s energy

Actually what the president desires and wishes is one [limit]. I’d say there’s a congressional test, the place numerous committees within the Home and the Senate have jurisdiction over items of the Division of Well being and Human Companies. The secretary has to undergo two Senate affirmation hearings, one with the Finance Committee and one with the HELP Committee. That is gobbledygook to lots of people, nevertheless it simply signifies that there are many congressional committees — three within the Home and two within the Senate — with large curiosity in what is going on on at HHS. And to allow them to have hearings regularly. They do what’s known as oversight, calling the secretary in, calling the division in, difficult authority: Why are you doing this or that?

After which there’s a complete authorized system that may sue the division. The FDA could be very used to that. Any time they might situation, for example, a tobacco regulation, tobacco firms would instantly file a lawsuit and gradual that down or cease it. That may be completed. When there’s any form of minimize instructed to the hospital system, the hospital affiliation instantly goes to court docket. So I’d say the court docket, Congress and the president function as guardrails across the secretary’s energy.

On how a lot discretion Robert F. Kennedy Jr. must hearth lots of of profession staffers, as he has promised to

At this level, I’d say the discretion is restricted by civil service safety. Within the waning days of the final Trump administration, there was an govt order issued that may have eliminated civil service safety from a number of federal staff. I can not keep in mind what number of. The Biden incoming administration instantly rescinded that govt order, so it is by no means been carried out. [So, absent that] you actually cannot simply hearth people who find themselves in a protected place.

However I feel simply suggesting that you just wish to hearth individuals earlier than he is aware of something about what these of us are doing, [there’s a] probability that you just lose the perfect expertise instantly as a result of they stroll out the door. The FDA scientists are nicely sought out by business throughout the board. So simply the suggestion {that a} secretary is available in and says on the outset, I’ll do away with this division, I’ll hearth researchers at NIH, I’ll do away with these of us. What that does is ship actually a chilling impact all through the division — saying we’ve any individual coming in right here who does not worth us, does not like what we do. And I can inform you proper now, there are prone to be numerous individuals already having conversations about their subsequent job.

On Kennedy’s curiosity in shifting analysis priorities on the Nationwide Institutes of Well being away from infectious ailments

NIH analysis is completed in analysis universities throughout the nation. Bobby Kennedy stated, let’s give infectious ailments a break and give attention to weight problems. What he clearly does not perceive is that inside the Nationwide Institutes of Well being, these are happening concurrently.

You may’t choose and select when an infectious illness goes to interrupt out. And in reality, he is clearly not studying the information as a result of we’re, I feel, a yr or so away from a significant outbreak of avian flu in people. We have seen avian flu soar from birds to livestock and from livestock to farm staff. That is only a step away from a significant outbreak of avian flu, which proper now has no vaccine. Do I would like individuals to cease researching what might be an efficient counter to an avian flu outbreak? Completely not. As a result of it is coming. And it is approaching a timetable that Bobby Kennedy can not management.

On the influence that Kennedy’s anti-vaccine views might have on vaccine uptake nationwide

[The CDC has] a listing of recognized childhood vaccines and makes suggestions to states. After which state governments undertake their very own vaccine record based mostly on CDC suggestions. Some [states] have a extra strong record, some have a slender record. So by way of vaccine take-up … he might make very sturdy suggestions to states that they grant much more exemptions to oldsters, so significantly improve the variety of youngsters who might qualify to go to high school with out vaccines. He might encourage states to only make [vaccines] non-compulsory.

To me, that is actually private. I’ve an 11-month-old grandson. He’s too younger to qualify for the total measles vaccination set. We stay in a crimson state. He’s inclined to getting measles as a result of he cannot get vaccinated. And so these are actual life penalties. I imply, children might die from this type of coverage change. And I feel the secretary might have lots of affect. He cannot change the principles, however he might suggest very strongly that individuals who consider in Donald Trump ought to change the principles.

On how she thinks senators ought to take into consideration the ability they’d be giving Kennedy in the event that they confirmed him to steer HHS

I feel they need to assume lengthy and onerous about it. Take into consideration Bobby Kennedy as secretary throughout COVID, when there’s a possibility to face up Operation Warp Velocity and a COVID vaccine, which clearly saved lives. My guess is he wouldn’t have participated in that strong effort. He would have tried to throw limitations and roadblocks and recommend to those who they should not get the vaccine. That is an actual life instance that we simply had — and I feel was a exceptional scientific breakthrough and accomplishment — after which distinction it with this perspective. That is a extremely harmful place to be whenever you’re wanting on the security and safety of U.S. residents, and also you’re well being points that may topple our economic system.

I don’t know what Donald Trump’s well being coverage is, so it is a little bit complicated for me to know what to inform the senators. If [Kennedy] is allowed to, as Donald Trump has stated, “go wild on well being,” what does that imply? And I’d, if I have been a senator, attempt to perceive that, as a result of it is seemingly inside HHS to have a big impact on that senator’s constituents.

Dan Gorenstein is the chief editor of Tradeoffs, a nonprofit well being coverage information group. Reporter Ryan Levi produced this story for the Tradeoffs podcast, and tailored it for the net. You may take heed to the total interview right here: